Mike Vacanti: What Is The Superpower Beyond Leadership? – Episode 068

LFL 68 | Beyond Leadership


We are in a leadership crisis where prescriptive authority persists in our workplaces. We can do better by harnessing the superpower beyond leadership – believership. Believership brings a good heart, inclusion, diversity, and caring to leadership. The show’s guest today is Mike Vacanti, the founder of HumansFirst. Mike discusses with Patrick Veroneau how powerful believership is in inspiring others to follow. Listen to this episode and become a great leader!

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Mike Vacanti: What Is The Superpower Beyond Leadership?

Believership Is A Powerful Driver That Inspires Others To Follow

In this episode, we are going to talk about leadership but specifically, we are going to talk about it as it relates to believers or believership. My guest is the author of his new book, which is called Believership: The Superpower Beyond Leadership. What I think is so incredible about that title is that it’s saying it is a superpower and it explores leadership on a deeper level in terms of where we want to go. One of the points that he makes here is to talk about believership is awakening and the conversation continues to go throughout that in regards to different areas where all of us can improve our ability to lead and personal development plays such an important role. I’m not only obsessed with interviewing those like Mike Vacanti, whose actions are inspiring others but also in uncovering the research that demonstrates that we all can lead like no other. When we lead like no other, we succeed like no other so let’s get into it.

Mike, I want to thank you for taking the time to be on the show. As I mentioned before we started this, I’m not sure how we first linked up. I think it was through HumansFirst and then I saw what you were doing with your book, Believership. That struck me without even the tagline, which is The Superpower Beyond Leadership. You were kind enough in terms of reaching out to send me a manuscript of this earlier to get a chance to read this and I loved it. I was hoping we could jump into it. I would love to hear how you came about the idea of Believership as a book.

It’s great to be here with you, Patrick. First, I appreciate being a part of this. The work you are doing is extraordinary. The great experiment of HumansFirst, that has been an interesting year of my life. The HumansFirst Club, which some people are calling a movement now but that’s not a comfortable term for me at this point but I certainly am pleased that others feel it’s gaining momentum and growing. I think that open conversation came out of the soil of Believership, which is something that I coined and created through some coaching a few years ago. I was at a crossroads. I was in another transition after doing my fifth merger and acquisition over the past several years.

I would move out to Seattle for a couple of years and I came back to Minneapolis and I was searching for what was next and feeling a little bit stuck. The transaction wasn’t coming naturally. Somebody asked me in a job interview, “Mike, you are showing these extraordinary results every time there was a merger and acquisition. Why did that happen?” I think I lowered my voice in an octave or two and probably gave my best business BS and I didn’t believe a word of it. I was like, “I don’t know how to answer that question. I should find out.”

It was that deep dive journey, getting a lot of feedback from bosses, employees, people that worked for me, I worked with, partners, customers, 40 big packets of information that a coach took me through. What I learned or emerged through that was people believed in what we were doing together. That’s why it worked. While other business units do those mergers and acquisitions, there are a lot of fear, doubt and chaos. A lot was falling apart but my teams were thriving and succeeding. Believership was the best descriptor.

How about the tagline of this, though, the superpower? Everybody that I have talked to as they have written their books, there’s an intentional reason why that’s in there. I’m curious from your own perspective, that wasn’t by mistake.

No, it’s not. I believe that Believership better describes what’s happened with our great leaders over time. It better describes it than an adjective followed by the word leadership. Instead of the adjective, whatever that would be, leadership, I think that when people were able to create leadership and either the person, the mission or the product that they attach themselves and they committed. It was aligned to their thinking their values and they can show up whole.

Many years ago, I had come across the quote by John Quincy Adams that says, “If your actions inspire somebody to do, dream, learn or become more, you are a leader.” That has always stood out to me because that’s what you are talking about is I hear it. From a standpoint of Believership, is that it was your actions that inspired somebody. It wasn’t, “I’ve got the title. You are going to go this way.” Your actions inspired people to do those things, whether it was to learn, dream, become or do more. They decided to do that. Not you saying, “This is where we are going,” because we know what happens when it’s the title that’s creating the change. It’s not durable.

Create value and let people grow and develop. Click To Tweet

I love that quote. That nails it. The beauty about that is we have known this through time. I don’t know why we threw away the wisdom. We doubled down on what I call in the book prescriptive authority and is basically saying, “I’m in the big chair. You do what I say.” We are brilliant people. Over the last 100 years, with the few industrial revolutions we have been through, we became experts at driving efficiency and maximizing profit. Through that process, we dehumanized the workplace. We doubled down on more oppression to extract the value from people than to create value and let people grow and develop. My big view of the future, Patrick, is we are coming into a time of great change. It’s going to be more significant, rapid than any time before. It’s a non-industrial revolution. I don’t think we are preparing people for it and the research supports that.

That’s exactly what I loved as I was reading this and you talk about all these advances that we have made. My background prior to this was in biotech, pharmaceuticals and always the advances that were made. We see advances in so many other areas but you said, “Leadership is one of those that we were using a model that doesn’t fit anymore.” There is so much research now in regards to many different areas that impact our ability to lead.

There are a lot of studies out there and they have been saying it for a few years. Creativity and ingenuity will be the great advantages of a leader going forward and that we need more of that in our organizations. I don’t think we know how to get there. We have built containers that gave us the skills, the characteristics, the traits of a leader, which keeps repeating the same pattern of people that haven’t been able to lead very effectively.

You mentioned in the book that we are using a flawed process to identifying leaders. I was wondering, could you maybe talk a little bit about that? What is that flaw and how do we correct it?

In my experiences inside organizations and they are at the executive level so I jump in and sit on that executive team, we are going through change management, significant change, merger and acquisition. What was amazing is the person with the authority dictated the direction. When there was opposition in thought or idea, then that person was pushed aside. Those that would follow the command were the ones that rose to the top. I think that we built that through our ATS systems, job requirements. I will go through and look at the job descriptions of a senior executive or a leader in companies now. None of those tell me that that’s a leader that they are hiring. It’s a person with a bunch of experiences, certain skill levels, and a lot of degrees and letters after their name. There’s nowhere in there that talks about the quality of the person, the character, their adaptability or their ability to truly lead others.

You said your favorite interview question. Tell me about the relationships of the people you work with.

It’s an interesting one, isn’t it? Nobody has ever asked me that question. I asked that question when people were joining my team when I was doing interviews because I wanted to know you get a lot out of their descriptive quality or the way that they approach it. Are they going to talk about business and the relationships based on the outcomes of their interactions together or are they going to talk about the human being, the person? That type of information describes a lot of how they approach the world, teaming and who they believe they are themselves.

It’s an interesting one. As I read that, I was like, “That I think exposes a lot. It probably throws people.” I’m thinking this is going to be, let’s talk tactics and decisiveness. All of a sudden, tell me about relationships and the soft side of them. There are a lot of power to that.

LFL 68 | Beyond Leadership

Believership: The Superpower Beyond Leadership: Volume 1, The Experience

We can lead beyond our ability to follow directions or find those that will follow directions. What I believe, Patrick is if we step outside of the transactional nature of employment, I’m going to get my car, I’m going to show up and I’m going to trade my time for that paycheck. We are going to do good work together and that’s fundamental. That’s a good thing. I’m going to get my car. I’m going to come in with some enthusiasm. I can’t wait to engage with these people. We are going to go explore possibilities, not try to find the finish line and fall over each other at the end.

On a whole different level, if you are in a work setting, you spend more time with those people than you do, probably with your own family continually. Even if you are at home, you are not in the same room all the time. That’s where you spend most of your time. Wouldn’t it be nice to show up there and want to be there? It is through relationships.

A true leader, I believe, can create that environment to a strong degree. It is by acknowledging that each individual is an individual. We have bought into again the container, the industrial model of sameness. With that idea that everybody is the same or equal, we don’t look at their individual strengths. I like to encourage people to double down on their strengths. Your weaknesses are low priority strengths.

We don’t like to work on our weaknesses. Marcus Buckingham’s First, Break All the Rules talked about the idea that we want to double down on our strengths.

There’s a growth mindset in that. When one of my weaknesses becomes an anchor for me, then I will want to go address that. I will get support around it but change it because it makes me different than others, it doesn’t seem to be a good reason to do it.

You mentioned in regards to the character being much more important than skills. I certainly share a similar thought around that but I would be curious as to what your thoughts are on it. Why do you think that is? What is it that makes a character more important than the skillset?

Skills can be learned. They can be learned and applied. I didn’t have a finance degree at all but you go through the business for a little while and I can pour through a financial report pretty darn quickly and find opportunities and holes in the budgets and do all kinds of things. It’s not a skill that I came in with but I became rather expert at it. Is that important? It helped me perform the job. Character, as opposed to skill, is about the experience. How consistently do I show up? How authentically do I show up? We can get into definitions around that. I know that’s one of the adjective leadership categories. Do I value other people? What is the purpose of getting things done? Is it to collect more money and move on? Am I willing to discard humanity for personal gain? Those are the character issues. In the end, those are the things we experience. That’s my big definition. Some people will say soft skills or human skills. I don’t think that treating people well, being able to operate mind, body and spirit, operate from the soul is character. It has nothing to do with skills.

It’s interesting because my perspective on that is very similar in regards to the things that you bring up. My guess is in a role that you had, if you didn’t know how it was done, if you treated others around you the right way, then they would want to help you out to get what you needed. To me, that’s where I see a character as being so important that if I do the right things, then people naturally want to help out those people that they feel like care about other people. Skills can always be a deficit. If I do the right thing and treat other people, they are going to help me figure out and get the answers I need because they know that I’m the kind of person that will help them out as well. For them, too. I think we are much more forgiving in terms of people’s inadequacies when we feel like they come from a place of goodness.

I think that when that environment exists, when a person of high character is involved in the environment, leading the environment, that when people have skill deficits, they will embrace going after and changing them because it’s a safe growth path. I don’t have to hide my deficiencies. It’s like, “I don’t know how to do this but I know I can get you there.” We will give you 90 days. You are going to be good at it.

Create learning and development opportunities for young and emerging leaders. Click To Tweet

That allows you to have vulnerability.

I think that changes the game and my belief now, Patrick, looking forward, putting myself in a feature mindset is I believe we need to get there. Change is going to happen more significantly and rapidly than at any time in the past. These are the important foundations I think we need to put in place.

One of the questions or certain obstacles that I tend to see out there as we talk about vulnerability especially is maybe managers that are looking to be leaders and about connection and this fear of, “I can’t be too close to the people I work for.” I’m curious about your thoughts. If you hear somebody say that, like, “I can’t get too close to the people that report to me,” what goes through your mind?

I have a personal experience with that, Patrick, and I will run through it quickly. During one of those transformation times, my team hit it out of the park, 150% of margin, 137% of revenue. I’ve got the big bonus check in the bank and I’m down in Cabo collecting my little glass trophy. One of 12, 13 people out of tens of thousands of people in the company, we are down there with the executive team. I always joke. It’s like, “We are going to go on the awards trip. It’s three days with the executive team. Second place is a week.”

We were down there and I’ve got pulled aside by the commander who was a consultant next to the CEO. He pulls me aside and he said, “Mike, congratulations on the win and your team and everything is great stuff but we don’t like the way you do it. You don’t look like the rest of us on the executive team. That’s not the way we operate our teams and our people. Your results are great but your team seems to be having too much fun,” is what they are almost saying. When we get together for company meetings, they are all excited to see you, like they hug each other. They said, “You are too close to your people and you need to start detaching.” In other words, you need to become more like us that don’t care about people, which again is throwing up prescriptive authority.

What I knew is my team hit it out of the park because of that environment. I left Cabo after those three days, knowing I was leaving the company. I had no intention of becoming like them. When somebody says to a young manager and emerging leader that you can’t get too close to people because you can’t make the hard decisions, when you are close to people, you can have all of the difficult conversations. You both know where everything stands and can go deep with that. I have no idea where that idea came from but I believe it’s absolutely wrong unless we are playing cards and there’s a discard pile. You don’t want the attachment to the discards but I believe in building people up and taking them with us, not throwing them away.

Oftentimes when I hear that, to me, it speaks more. I feel like there’s an insecurity in regards to that individual’s own ability to have their actions inspire. They feel like they are not able to have clear expectations of other people and be able to have radical candor or those kinds of conversations that somehow, I’m going to be taken advantage of. It says more about the individual than it does about the situation. As I have seen it in organizations, that have been part of this prescriptive of your executive team. I’m sure there are many out there at different companies that do the same thing. Don’t get too close to your people so that’s what they learn. I will be taken advantage of. To me, it’s counterintuitive that you won’t be taken advantage of because they will feel like they can come to you and you can tell somebody, “I think you are taking advantage of our relationship now.”

Think of it in a different context, Patrick. Imagine if you believe that philosophy and it was right at work so we are going to take that into our family lives now. How does that work with your children? Believe me, I have seen families that operate this way, especially coaching sports. You see all kinds. Now you have to put money aside for college tuitions, weddings and therapy because it’s like, “Here’s the deal. You have to follow my direction. When you are 25, you’ve got funds waiting for therapy.” Why would we treat people that way? That has been a mystery to me is I don’t understand the logic in treating people.

LFL 68 | Beyond Leadership

Beyond Leadership: Double down on your strengths. Your weaknesses are low priority strengths.


I think your example of a family is very valid and it’s one that I would oftentimes use in that situation with you. I have been telling this story for a number of years but I would say my oldest son has been my best friend without question. That said, when push comes to shove, he knows that I’m his dad. If there are decisions that need to be made, it’s not, “I hope you like me and I can be friends with all your friends.” If he was under-aged, “Can I buy you guys beer so I can be part of the guys and be friends?” That’s not where we are at. There’s a line there and I don’t feel taken advantage of. I do think that can be the same thing in a work setting where you can care deeply about somebody but also there can be a line where you can say, “Now is a time where there needs to be some accountability.”

I believe in looking at where we can take leadership. I love that example. Getting close to people is magic. Given the opportunity, people will amaze us. One of the areas that I like to focus is on the new era of leaders and part of it is, I enjoyed coaching youth sports and watching growth through a period of time. The other thing is how much time are we going to spend mud wrestling with some executive hoping they will have an epiphany along the way. I like to focus on the possibilities for the future. A good place to go is to create learning and development opportunities for young and emerging leaders.

Along those lines, when we talk about new opportunities, when should we start developing leaders?

It seems like that would be a natural thing to bring in from day one. The hard part in the past to make that happen is I don’t think people could clearly identify what that leadership philosophy was to put it in front of you, to ask you to start learning it, embracing it or find your way into it as you go along in your career. We have an apprenticeship. You watch the person before you. You learn to do what they do. You become that person. You follow that pattern. I think that we focus on outcomes and you find the best way to do it. Maybe you can create more possibilities than finding the most efficient way to repeat what has been done before you.

When I hear you talk about this, I have been a fan of saying, “I think we need to put leadership as part of onboarding,” right from the get-go because if we talk about behaviors, actions that inspire, why wait two years to find out if somebody is capable of that? When we miss an opportunity from the get-go of saying, “Let’s help people identify what the behaviors are that create the environment that we want to see here and decide who takes this and runs with it.” That, to me, is the start of developing your bench strength.

Here’s the other great advantage if that became the case. Culture would start from day one because that person would know what they are contributing to and feel that they can grow within instead of, “I stay outside of the Petri dish and see if it’s safe to jump in.” It’s a completely different environment.

You were talking about where we are in such a changing world now in terms of complexity, and I would be curious about your thoughts, at times you think maybe we have overcomplicated leadership. Even though the environment around us has become much more complicated but are we going the wrong way?

I think we have mischaracterized leadership. That’s what I try to explore in the book and the book intends to start the conversation. I have very little interest in being right but I certainly would love to be better, start the conversation and invite everybody in is how we can be better. I don’t think the path we are on now is either desirable or sustainable. The mischaracterization of leadership has a lot to do with that. We still live in a world that is built around the ideas of stack ranking. You throw everybody into a bucket and you climb over each other to see who gets out at the top and then you wash the 10% carnage at the bottom away.

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It’s like General Electric.

Who’s thrown it away since they have moved off? Microsoft moved off it after Balmer. Other companies that adopted that practice have set it aside. Google was one of them that, at one point, interestingly. What I always wonder is how many great people who cared about the person next to them and maybe gave them a little bit of a boost, got washed down to the bottom because they were good human beings?

That’s exactly my thought on this onboarding for leadership development is what if somebody right out of the gate said, “This is what I’m meant to do. I’m meant to be there for whatever in terms of development.” They have been washed out of the company because of some arbitrary metric that said, “Somebody had to get a needs improvement and you did well but everybody else is a little better.” That, to me, is what always blew me away. It’s like, “How can the whole team be doing well and somebody still gets a needs improvement?” It doesn’t fly.

We didn’t honor the role that they played on the team, which is a myopic vision of things. On the leadership piece, I also believe that we are going to continually struggle to get to the diversity and inclusion that we so often read, hear, talk about and see the positive information around the benefits of a diversified organization. If we continue to believe leadership is men that can take their countries to war, the conqueror, we are not going to solve that. What I believe is that when we create a different environment and vision of leadership, Patrick, we will allow the best people to rise.

For those best people, in selecting a leader, I would start with the one that people are following. Often, we promote the person that’s way out on the fringe. People don’t enjoy working with them. They follow the prescriptive manner of the people before them. I would take a look at the team and say, “I’m going to take the natural leader, the one that people are already following,” and then I will put the financial genius on their team. I will fill their team with their gaps but I’m going to promote the leader into leadership. I think it’s a good plan.

We are back to the character again over skills. A couple of things that you mentioned in the book that I wanted to make sure of. One was, again, as I read this, it was like an a-ha moment for me around best practices. We always strive for best practices, yet not looking in that is that could almost be our downfall.

Best practices were always a challenge to me. I was in technology implementation and software development. Understanding methodologies, I have been trained in many of them. I understand the world of repeatability, agile and methodologies and how important they can be. It’s not out of ignorance or lack of awareness. I think that every time we enforce the best practice, we are saying, “This is the way we have chosen to do it, ask no questions, do not improve. We don’t want innovation, no imagination, follow orders.” We say that without knowing it. We have been bought into this, “That’s definitely a best practice,” where I assure you that the merchandising people at Toys”R”Us had a best practice about maybe not even to be a good one.

They had an eCommerce and the supply chain practice. Maybe it wasn’t very good. I had hip surgery. I like that the surgeon knew what he was doing and followed the format to put that artificial hip in place. That would be an exception where best practice. I was probably the benefactor. I like when people run the safety check underneath an airplane before we go up in the air. That is an exception to best practice. When we can end up operating business best practices become a limiter. It is a way to shut down conversation, imagination and exploration in a better way.

LFL 68 | Beyond Leadership

Beyond Leadership: When we create a different environment and vision of leadership, we allow the best people to rise.


I would even argue that your hip surgery, there were better ways to do it. The procedure has advanced over what it was that somebody didn’t accept that this was the best practice, that you always need to be it’s about better practices. It’s constantly looking at how do we do this? It was the best that they knew at the time but it’s still not the best. I thought about this a lot as I read this over and over and I said, “Is the best practice may be about curiosity or our best practices that we are always going to be curious about exploring better?”

The best possibilities are the way I love to say it. What’s great about that is you gave an exception to my exception on the surgery piece, which shows what’s possible. You said, “There are new ways to explore. There could be a better way to do it.” What’s funny about best practices is I was offered to speak at an event coming up in 2020. They sent out the invite and they said, “These are the eleven best practices that we are going to be covering on this one topic. Is there one that you would prefer to zero in on?” If there are eleven best practices to choose from, are there any at all? What does the word best mean? Here are eleven best practices around one thing. If there’s two, there’s none but we are at eleven. I declined to speak. I can suggest people for you but believe me, I would blow this place up. You wouldn’t want me there. That’s theoretically. I would blow it up with ideas.

Speaking of blowing up theoretically, when we talk about HR, as it is now, human resources, is this an area that needs to have happened to it? In the environment that we are in and dealing with a lot of HR organizations or when I go in there to work with an organization in dealing with HR, the world is so different now in terms of HR and nobody wants to be a resource. I responded to a post that you were on in terms of looking at this in terms of HR, to me, it’s about human relationships and not about resources.

I absolutely agree with that. The nomenclature certainly is one barrier. I have implemented HCM systems so Human Capital Management. There are operational pieces to having employees and orchestrating along with compliance regulations. There are a lot of complexity to that. It’s definitely an area of skill, need and knowledge that needs to exist but it’s business operations. Where I think HR has failed is learning, developing and allowing people to connect to the vision, mission values of a company with their own vision, mission and values. It has been this everybody is the same. You have to adopt what we are giving you. We are going to measure you against that.

I have a lot of friends who are brilliant practitioners and good thinkers around HR and HR change. It’s so funny because for decades, Patrick, Peter Capelli and the others, the academics have been saying, “HR needs to sit at the table and they keep relabeling themselves.” I look at it and say, “I’m not sure HR has ever left the table.” I look at an organizational structure and HR seems tight right in there with the executive group. What I think the opportunity, the need is, and this is probably the greatest time of need and opportunity, is to break out of that isolated chamber of sitting in the operational group and getting out into the business.

Until you can get out to the fringes where more of the people are, where business is truly being conducted and not be the governance but be the growth engine, that comes through personal development, it’s about relationships. HR is most effective out on the fringes, not in the center or in the core. That’s a great opportunity but the model definitely has to be blown up to get HR out to the fringes, the client edge or the business environment. They are sitting in an isolated pod, out of the structure.

One of the things that you mentioned in that was personal development and you mentioned that in the book as well. To me, I look at that as is a different shift, too, in terms of leadership development of people having to take responsibility for their own development. As we are sort of wrapping things up, I would love if you could touch on that.

My belief in personal development is to let the individual human being develop into the best they can become based on where their goals, desires lead them, what their intentions and ambitions are. It’s amazing to me when we bring people into organizations and give them a learning and development plan. It’s teaching them the things that we already hired them for. “Congratulations. We spent all this time interviewing you and you are the most proficient. You are the best person with all these capabilities. Now that you are here, we are going to teach those to you.” I have always been baffled by that. It’s like, “You hired me to do that job. I already have those skills.” What I think is we want people to be open-minded and always growing. If there’s an area of interest and there’s a $500 budget for me through a year to play on learning and development, don’t send an accountant to learn more about accounting.

Pursue better instead of trying to prove you're right. Click To Tweet

Don’t send a salesperson to learn more about sales. Let them explore what they want to explore. Psychology would be a good thing. If somebody will allow themselves to stay in a growth mindset, they will grow in all areas of their life. If we invest in influence and let those people develop into who they believe their best self will be, we will then be the benefactors of them bringing their best selves to work and giving us their best efforts. It has been a missed opportunity built on a flawed philosophy.

I totally agree with you there in that regard. I’m going to fall all the way back to onboarding as part of this. People that have the opportunity to say, “I like this. This is of interest to me and I never knew about this before. I would like to go in this direction.” To me, those are the self-identifying people. How do I improve my skillset? “You are not telling me to do it. I’m naturally gravitating in this direction.” To me, it’s like, “I’m throwing my resources at that person because I know that they want this. This isn’t a forced fun exercise or a course you’ve got to take. You are doing it.

I love self-identifying. Isn’t that an emotion unto itself? Allow the best people to rise.

Provide them the resources and let them go.

I believe in people. I think given the opportunity, people amaze us. When we try to conform and put them into buckets and push them along a path in a very prescriptive way, I think we only get pieces of them and not always their best pieces.

I have thoroughly enjoyed this. The book, for me, has been very thought-provoking. As somebody that spends a lot of time in this space, it’s always nice to get different perspectives and things that I would take for granted. This provides an opportunity to reflect on so that’s how it’s helped me. As you have put this out there, what are you hoping for the reader?

I would love to spark the notion that we can do better. We don’t have it figured out. This is not the end because I think that gives us little hope. It’s bleak in this environment. When we look at where we are from a mental and physical health situation within workplaces, we can do better. Here are some ideas that I’m presenting for discussion, again, in hopes of let’s pursue them better instead of trying to prove we are right. If we can take the notion of improving rather than prove it, we start winning.

About being right, I think you are completely on it, especially around conflict where if we can come to the table with the idea that maybe both of us are right here, think of what changes when that opportunity presents itself. I don’t have to come to this thing locked in with, “I think I’ve got the answer here,” because I miss opportunities. We all miss opportunities when we do that, thinking, “I’ve got it all figured out.” None of us have it figured out.

LFL 68 | Beyond Leadership

Beyond Leadership: Best practices shut down conversation, imagination, and exploration of a better way.


Patrick, imagine if we wanted to solve it in that way. What if it’s your idea and my idea, and we go make the best of our beliefs and what we have? Imagine how much political strife would come out of organizations? “I don’t know. Patrick thinks so, I’m going to go and make sure I have dinner with the boss.” You know how people act. I’m going to feel my side. I’m going to build my case. I’m going to rally people around me. I’m going to beat Patrick instead of like, “Patrick, what if we could both blow through this, bring everybody with us and we all get our bonus?” That would be a beautiful thing. That’s called teaming.

That’s a whole other episode. What’s the best way to get ahold of you?

My website is MJVacanti.com. You can find me through the HumansFirst Club, which is HumansFirst.club. That has been an enjoyable journey for me. Also, I’m on social media and I’m very open so please reach out. I want to be here, discuss these ideas and help as much as I can.

This book is a great add to that. Thank you for taking the time. I appreciated this. It’s going to be very well received.

Thank you, Patrick. This is a great joy. Also, I want to, again, commend you on the ideas and the work that you are doing to open the doors to what’s possible for all of us.

Thank you. I appreciate that. That’s what this is about.

That episode with Mike was so powerful. There were many pearls that he provided in terms of how do you create believership and it truly is an awakening. What I enjoyed most about this is that Mike said that this book is not about providing definitive answers, even though answers are there in terms of how do you create believers. Even he would admit that this is about sparking a discussion so that we can talk about how do we do a better job of leading. This is probably the first evolution for him and there will be more that he will develop from this. If you know somebody that you think would benefit from this, I would ask that you forward it onto them. If you haven’t subscribed, I ask that you please go ahead and subscribe. It would mean the world to me if you would leave a rating or a comment on this or any other episode because that’s how this message continues to get out there. Until our next episode together, I hope you are able to lead like no other and rise above your best.

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